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     Sunday, August 19, 2007
    Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:46:15 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00) ( )

    Note: For visitors of your site, this entry is only displayed for users with the preselected language English (United States)/English (United States) (en-US)

    For about two years now there has been a debate raging in SEO circles that far too often got far too heated. The Guru has always been a little surprised how some people can get so emotionally attached to an online discussion that it causes them to lose their tempers.  He’s pretty sure it has something to do with people sometimes being desperate to be right. Or maybe it's that they are desperate to not be wrong. Whatever.

    If you’re not familiar with the term or the concept, the Guru recommends this post http://www.twospots.com/web-articles/21/. It explains what most of the industry THOUGHT it was at the time. You’ll notice that it describes what it is and what it does in a manner that automatically assumes it as a fact. It is not a fact and never was. But the article is concise and it does a pretty good job of describing the position of the yes-there-is-a-sandbox faction.

    In spite of the fact that Googleguy himself told everybody there was no sandbox, http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3605961,  the assumptions of the above article seemed to satisfy the conventional wisdom and even the Guru freely admits something had changed in the way sites and pages were being indexed and placed for keywords, but during the entire debate, the Guru was still having new sites get indexed, placed and delivering search traffic faster than ever before. So, something was different but it was not a blanket penalty on all new sites that kept them from being found for keyword searches until they could establish trust.

    Bob Massa offered proof of no sandbox  in an interview he did for Seobook http://www.seobook.com/archives/001819.shtml. It may have been seen as a kind of joke, (he does like to tickle the funny bone when given the chance), because it referred to bathroom spamming, but the point was no joke. It doesn’t take 9 months to get search engine traffic!  

    That was almost a year ago, and that brings us to today.

    Today on Google, a search for:

    Ask the SEO Guru #1

    Ask an seo #3

    SEO Guru #8

    How to steal clicks #31

    (I mention this one because if you read the post from the 17th

    http://massa.techndu.com/CommentView,guid,59dbb266-0afd-45a1-8e24-6cd42b4ba38b.aspx#commentstart

    in the 11th comment I mentioned that I was #39 but it would move up and today it is at #31)

    These placements did not take 9 months. They barely took 9 MINUTES! They were there in less than 24 hours and started moving up. There are several other terms in the top too but this should be sufficient. Those terms don’t generate a lot of traffic. The guru was just making a point. The only one that is bringing any traffic is the ask an seo and that is more of a pain in the backside than it’s worth.

    This Techndu domain is less than 30 days old. This blog is less than 1 week old. It was not submitted to any directory, article submission service or press release service. It was not submitted to Google sitemaps. It was not submitted to anything, anywhere. There’s no anchor text targets other than a clever title, (read the post about the title tag from the 17th of August), in fact, I can not imagine how anyone could do any less to promote a website or blog than the Guru did with this blog.

    Naturally, there was a plan and a purpose for the blog and how it would be put up and why but it was not to teach seo or prove the Guru could get any site into the top of search engines. It was to teach how to make money online and prove to the world, (especially my customers and partners), that if the Guru could do it, anybody could do it.

    ANYBODY CAN MAKE MONEY ONLINE WITHOUT HAVING TO BE AN SEO

    I recently have become involved with a free hosting service focused on the Indian market. That is why I’m here in India and plan to be bi-continental for several years to come. My job is now to see that our hosting partners learn as much about how to make  money online as fast as possible and the Guru is well suited to the task. THAT is why he wanted to kill the sandbox debate. It is just a step in the process.

    So, if your site is not generating any traffic and you tell yourself it is because of the sandbox, (or any other reason you choose as an excuse to not make any money online), you are throwing money away. If you don’t have any placements anywhere for any terms that would attract the demographic you are targeting after several months, you did something wrong. The quicker you accept that and start addressing the reality, the quicker you can start telling your friends how you like to make money online in your spare time.

    Just think – one day soon you could be just like the GURU.  

    Sunday, August 19, 2007 9:31:47 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    When I wrote my comment at your last entry, you were 47th for "seo guru", two hours later moved up to 13th, and now you're 7th. That's pretty impressive! Sandbox, what Sandbox? :-)
    Sunday, August 19, 2007 9:44:09 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    glad to see you Martin. You can do it too ya know

    The Guru
    Monday, August 20, 2007 8:39:48 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    I believe that the point is this - the sandbox is very real for new sites trying to rank for COMPETITIVE KW phrases. New terms or low volume KW's can indeed rank right away - even with few, if any backlinks. Nothing new here.
    Monday, August 20, 2007 12:22:46 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    The Guru knew he would be stepping on some toes. He agrees ask an seo ain't poker but it ain't antique ivory handled straight razors either.
    Massa
    Monday, August 20, 2007 3:15:39 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    I must admit that I was a bit apprehensive at first when I "heard" about your blog. I must say, you have proved yourself to me and it's about time people like you start cutting through the BS lines often spun by most SEO's. I never once believed in this sandbox nonsense because the big "G" themselves have never truly answered the question at any SES conference. Sure, anybody can rank non competitive KW's and several large and well known companies target those to keep clients happy.

    In short, hats off to you. I'll be watching, reading, and learning.
    Scott B
    Monday, August 20, 2007 3:16:53 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Hey, can you teach me how NOT to type 102 WPM and stop missing spelling mistakes? Yeah yeah... spellchecker... blah blah blah!

    HAHA!
    Scott B
    Monday, August 20, 2007 3:17:42 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    See... I failed again! =)
    Scott B
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:45:49 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    You do know that those terms don't actually get any searches and that the while sandbox/filter whatever is only supposed to affect key phrases that get searches, right?

    "ask a seo" ZERO searches a month, "seo guru" ZERO Searches a month, at least according to the keyword suggestion tool over at DP

    show some domains that are less then 1.5 years old that rank for terms that get hundreds of searches a day, then you would be showing something



    ferret
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:29:51 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    >You do know that those terms don't actually get any searches <
    ^The Guru knew he would be stepping on some toes. He agrees ask an seo ain't poker but it ain't antique ivory handled straight razors either.^

    Ferret, I can understand how difficult it is change the way you think about something but I'm trying very hard to make a point and the point is simply that it doesn't take long to make money online. Too many people have been discouraged by being told there is a sandbox and that has caused them to make decisions that have affected their income. Why start on a project if it will take 9 month before I get anything from it? That is wrong and that is why I made the sensational headline and picked the terms I did. The point would not be as easy to make if I had picked a term that got hundreds of hits a day. Even then someone would just say,"show me something that gets thousands of searches a day".

    I picked what I picked and what I said to try to get people to understand it is NOT about searches or placements. it is about money and making sales. Those terms DO get some traffc by the way and it is qualified traffic that generated these two emails today. (the names have been changed to protect the guity)
    ************************

    Thanks Massa! Also, I run an SEO company, and have been doing so for
    about 6 years. We are pretty good and pretty successful, but I wouldn't say we are

    the best at what we do. Do you offer outsourcing, where we can pay you to

    get our clients top placement? Would you be able to give me some rough

    numbers as far as pricing goes?

    AND
    *****************************
    Hello Mr. Massa,

    I am looking for SEO on a web project for one of the top keywords, i am on the Shawn Pringle list, and i have read all the blogs. Very interedsted, please get back to me as soon as possible.

    The website is: http://www.*******games.com and want to rank in the top5 of the keyworkd "games" and some other related ones

    Please let me know how can we setup a fruitful cooperation between both of us. Please send a proposal or quotation as soon as possible.

    Thank you very much

    best regards
    ****************

    I haven't closed either one of them yet, but they are certainly the kind of leads I would gladly pay for. And what I'm hoping you can see ferret, is that two leads are WAAAYYYYY better than a thousand HITS. I bought no links, I paid no designer, (obviously), I didn't use PPC it cost me virtually nothing to get those leads and it didn't take me 9 months and YOU CAN DO IT TOO.

    I am wanting anyone reading this to NOT be satisfied to wait up to nine months believing Google won't let you. That is the point.

    The Guru
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:29:32 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Bob,

    Found your site from the Shawn Pringle email. He obviously spoke very highly of you. I was intrigued, but after reading the blog I have not found anything related to specific actions to help improve ranking in the search engines. You have articulated some good general philosophies, but it would be much appreciated if you could "show your stuff" with specific, workable actions for people instead of generalities.

    With all due respect, I am asking you to build credibility with your readers by telling moderately experienced SEOs some "secrets" that they don't know. In the long run, it will help with your credibility for attracting new clients.
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:50:18 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    >by telling moderately experienced SEOs some "secrets" that they don't know<

    the secret is staring you in the face but you're not wanting to see it.

    By telling me you are a moderately experienced SEO, you are telling me that you already know how to generate some traffic at least. by asking for the "secrets" you don't know you are also telling me that you are not making money, (or at least not enough to feel like you "know" the secret), and you are also telling me that there is nothing I can tell you that is going to satisfy you because you're laboring under one of the most popular misconceptions on the web. That your problem is you need more traffic from free SEO and if you just had the "secrets" THEY had, you'd have everything you need. That is wrong.

    #1 there is no such thing as free SEO. It costs time and/or money, usually both. SEO is an expense and it can be extreme.

    #2.If you're REALLY sure your only problem is you need more traffic, buy it. there are a lot of ppc programs that will generate more traffic with far less expense than spending your time reading things you don't want to hear in the first place.

    #3. the secret is --
    pay attention to the people and the search engines will follow. If you pay more attention to converting 10 hits a day into 1 sale than putting your focus into getting another 100 hits, you will see your placements go up.

    the days of a PR 7 beating a PR 6 is gone. The days of stuffing your page with hidden keywords are gone and all that will do is get you the dreaded -950 penalty http://www.webmasterworld.com/google/3215939.htm

    Search engines today are so much smarter than that but their primary purpose, (to keep eyeballs returning to their search engine by delivering the perception of relevancy), has not changed. they want to give PEOPLE what PEOPLE are looking for and THAT is the secret. Learn to focus on the humans that come to your site BEFORE worrying about how to get more humans to the site and the engines will deliver more PEOPLE..

    there are a lot of ways of doing this and of getting qualified traffic even without a single search engine placement and I'll be discussing all the ways I know of as we move along, but the easiest and fastest is to increase your conversions by even 1% from the traffic you have now. If you are getting only 100 hits a month and focus on doing what I just did with you, look at what they are doing, think about what they are saying and try to respond to them honestly and directly you will see a 10% or more, (I've had a LOT of sites jump 1000% in traffic in less than 30 days), increase in search engine referrals.

    I don't have any solid numbers and I'm speaking in generalities but that is the secret. Search engines care about the actions of people and they are getting very smart about figuring out what that means.

    Everything I just said is probably just going to piss you off because that is NOT what you wanted to hear but it is the truth and what I use to do what I do. If you like we can discuss IP delivery, churn and burn through 700 domains a month and spamming 50,000 blogs. Is that the secrets you’re referring to? Or are you wanting me to tell you how to pick the "right" link to buy? The problem with those things are there are a LOT of people who can help with that better than I can BUT, those things are all more expensive, more risk and have a steeper learning curve than simply focusing on increasing your conversions by listening and talking to the people you already have.

    Focus on the people and the engines will follow them. THAT is the secret. I don't know if that will build enough credibility to attract new clients or not, but it is the truth, it works and anybody can do it.

    One final thing. I can also tell from what you said that you may be feeling frustrated and thinking you just keep doing it wrong. It doesn’t have to be that way marc. If you focus on dealing with people and start thinking about them like you think about search engines those feelings can change. One person telling you they like what you did or said and you did it right! Even you saying, “with all due respect” is better than a placement and I know it may be hard to see but it makes me more money too.
    The Guru
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:43:47 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    I certainly appreciate your candid comments. We are making good money on the web. We have good traffic but not what I think we should be generating. We are just at the "cusp" of a ton of traffic. By that I mean we got as high as page 2 on G for several VERY competitive high traffic keyphrases (example: #13 out of 700+ million results), but have been unable to get on the top of page 1 except for a few terms. And you know the massive difference in traffic from the top of page 1 to page 2. There clearly is something we are missing. You are right that I am frustrated because we cannot figure out what the guys at #1-3 already have, and we are SO close. I guess I am just looking for some additional SEO "secrets" to put us over the top.

    By a SEO "secret" I mean the following as an example: A way to get inexpensive, valuable, permanent, high PR and credible links is to donate one time to certain non-profit sites. The additional "secret" that someone like yourself might know would be how to locate these types of sites. Another example would be what you specifically did to eliminate the "sandbox" and start ranking immediately. That is intriguing.

    BTW, I agree 100% with your comments on conversion. If you can go from 1-3% conversion, it is like tripling your traffic. The question would be how to increase that conversion. I also agree with writing content for your visitors. If the content is geared toward seo only, your traffic is worthless because the content will not be valuable to your visitors, and therefore won't convert.
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 2:14:08 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)

    The Guru loves what you said about conversion tripling your traffic. Boy I'm such a sucker for a good story.

    email me.
    The Guru
    Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:16:19 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Massa,

    Would your site rank well early without links from SEO Book and Marketing Pilgrim? Sandbox or no sandbox you have to have quality links to obtain rankings. I've never seen a website generate significant search engine traffic without having substantial links or at least high quality links. (black hat excluded) The average webmaster is lacking the powerful network that you have to announce your site. I agree that for a new website the focus should completely be on maximizing conversions and that ranking for quality long tail keywords and writing an effective headline and sales page should be top priority. However, you can have the greatest sales pages in the world, without links they're just not going to get found.

    I'm sure everyone commenting would like to know "the secret" for how the no name webmaster can obtain search engine traffic early on. I don't believe there is a secret. You either have a great network that gives you an early link and branding boost or if you're a no name webmaster you just have to work smart and persist, have clever ideas or deep pockets to hire those with clever ideas, or just get lucky.

    Aaron Wall calling you an "An SEO older than dirt" has made a huge impact for you. That is a great headline that immediately draws the interest of anyone in the SEO industry whether novice or pro. I'm sure everyone that read his blog the day of that post couldn't resist clicking your link to see who this SEO older than dirt really was.

    It's definitely about the people. If you have a retail clothing website and just happen to know the editor of a popular fashion magazine... call = article = credibility, links, and traffic. If you have a retail clothing website and don't know the editor of a popular fashion magazine... call = who cares = hang up the phone and no links. Whether online or offline, having a network of key people is the best way to jump start a business and build links and traffic. So what everyone would like to know is how do you prioritize your time if you don't have an all-star network?

    From what you have written so far in all of your posts, I assume that you are giving the following advice regarding SEO and making money online:

    Develop a website, focus on writing headlines and copy that sells, and do standard on page SEO
    Determine what people you want to find your website and all the ways they can find your website
    Take an inventory of your available marketing resources: ie: your network, marketing budget, expertise, link bait ideas and distribution channels, etc...
    Utilize your resources to connect with people to pre-sell and drive them to your site for your customer focused copy to increase their desire and take action to buy online or pickup the phone and call you

    What everyone wants to know: are you just blowing marketing smoke to get everyone interested or do you really know something that most folks don't know about SEO. I believe that it's not that you know secrets about SEO other people don't, it's that you are actually taking the time to think and develop a promotion + sales strategy rather than focusing 100% on rankings and forgetting about selling to the people.

    If this is the case then we’d all like insight on your actionable approach for developing a strategy and identifying and utilizing available resources to their full potential.

    Looking forward to your reply.
    Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:56:59 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    >The average webmaster is lacking the powerful network that you have to announce your site. <

    James I can understand why you would feel that way, but this assumption is completely wrong. I intentionally avoided doing anything that you or anyone else could not do. I did not use any network or any connections I have that you don't have. I did not ask for a single link. I made no deals or bargains and you are free to ask any one you like. If I had made a deal, I'd have a link from someone I admire and was hping to get one from. Shoemoney http://www.shoemoney.com
    I also didn't get one from Jason Dukehttp://www.strangelogic.com, Ed Purkiss http://www.me3inc.com, Danny Sullivan http://www.calafia.com/about, Jennifer Slegg http://www.jensense.com, Chirstine Churchill http://www.keyrelevance.com/about.htm, Mikkel Svendsen http://www.demib.dk or Ian Mcanerin http://www.mcanerin.com. I have a great deal of respect of all those folks, which is why I wrote about them. So, what kind of network is it I have where I link to them purely because I like them without expecting anything back?

    Had I have made a deal with a bunch of people I know it would have been counter-productive to my objectives. I can see how it is hard to believe that someone can actually accomplish something without having some kind of secret or network or some advantage but it's true. The only reason you feel like you can't do it James is because you have tried something and it failed. that is no big deal. Every one who puts a lot of time into figuring out search engines has more failures than success. Even me, and I'm the SEO Guru!

    Yes you can beat search engines and yes it does take a lot of hard work and focus and yes you can use all the help you can get and you will still fail a lot. But that is focus that could be spent on running your business and establishing relationships with people. You will fail far less often if you focus on that instead.

    You don't need a network. It is not about making deals that no one else could make. It is about shifting your thinking from the mechanics of a search engine to the emotional responses of people.
    The Guru
    Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:18:19 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:02:25 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    It might but the sandbox to rest in your mind... But I can guarantee that the concept will live on forever.
    soma (24.141.63.225 d141-63-225.home.cgocable.net)
    soma
    Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:20:27 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    I wish I could argue with you soma but I'm afriad you're right.

    by the way, you're going to have contribute a little more than that before I let you get a direct link to a pharma site.

    the guru wasn't born yesterday you know.
    The SEO Guru
    Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:48:09 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Ok, I'll wait for more blog posts for you to prove that a network doesn't matter, but you have to admit having a network of people both online and offline makes the process much easier.

    You wrote: "But that is focus that could be spent on running your business and establishing relationships with people. You will fail far less often if you focus on that instead."

    Wouldn't you agree that building relationships with people is the same as developing your network?

    You wrote: "You don't need a network. It is not about making deals that no one else could make. It is about shifting your thinking from the mechanics of a search engine to the emotional responses of people."

    In one paragraph you say that you need to focus on establishing relationships with people (building a network) then in the next paragraph you say you don't need a network. This is contradicting, so please clarify if you meant to say it another way.

    You wrote that you should shift your thinking from the mechanics of the search engines to the emotional responses of people. I agree with this: For example, Aaron Wall wrote a great headline: What does eating 12 cookies say about your behavior? I'm sure everyone that visited his site that day was curious enough to click that link. With that said, it appears that you are not blogging about SEO at all, just about writing good marketing copy that targets the emotions of people so shouldn't your blog be called the emotional response marketing guru? : )

    Anyways, you're a hoot, keep writing, you've been very vague so far with no actionable advice in your posts but at least entertaining.
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