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     Monday, September 24, 2007
    Monday, September 24, 2007 7:07:10 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00) ( )
    I’m FINALLY strong enough and mentally stable enough, (allegedly), to sit up and write for an hour or so. I’m going to attempt to resume my blogging duties today so the Guru can stop depriving his millions of fans of those pearls of wisdom that only the Guru can cast in his oh-so Guruish way. 

    This is an article that I started right before I caught malaria, and then typhoid fever and then salmonella and then a urinary infection all in the last 16 days. It is an article that I hope has some positive impact on the industry as a whole but I also hope it finally gives some honest to goodness advice on how to locate people in the SEO industry that can actually help you reach specific goals. You CAN find the right people that can help you at almost any price range and it’s not nearly as big a deal as has been reported over and over again.

    Over the last 11 years I’ve probably read 100 or so fluff pieces with titles like How TO Pick An SEO. Articles that were written with little fore-thought, factual data or anything resembling a logical conclusion having to do with helping you choose a competent SEO. The vast majority I’ve simply chose to ignore and not speak out figuring the blind leading the blind had little impact on the real world anyway. BUT, last month I ran across an article that was published by a well known blogger under the corporate flag of a highly visible, prominent company in the online promotion industry. A company that, supposedly, is on the same side of SEO or at least in a tightly woven symbiotic relationship that obviously capitalizes and benefits from the popularity of SEO.

    This is a company that has the eyes of the online promotional world upon them. A company whose words carry real weight and has an impact on not only their own readers, (which number in the thousands), but on an entire industry as well.  A company who has worked hard to establish a reputation within the industry and well deserves it I might add. But with that reputation comes a responsibility to hold itself to a higher standard of professional journalism.

    Because of this, the Guru feels he must speak out. Even knowing that it will not likely make him any friends within an organization that, as I said, has a reputation and is a leader within the Guru’s chosen field of endeavor. The Guru can only hope that the bitch slapping about to be given is taken in the spirit that is given, and that the slappee can see the slapper is wanting only to remind the slappee of their power and influence and to encourage them to raise their own bar and try to do better. 

    And so the slapping of the bitch persuasion begins.

    The article I’m referring to is titled 8 Tips for Avoiding an SEO Fraudster located at http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/2007/08/thoughts-about-seo.html

    Immediately the title rubs me the wrong way because regardless of what the actual intent is, it is not very flattering to ANY SEO. The Guru has seen so many of these link bait titles that it is not the title itself that bothers him as much as the fact that is being published by the Marketing Pilgrim whom the Guru has come to expect more from. That entices me to continue reading when ordinarily I would have just walked away.

    I will address and give a 4 star bitch slap to each of the 8 tips.

    >      1. The SEO industry is full of consultants that are either incompetent or crooked. How many? I would guess well over 90%. As a result, there is an unbelievable amount of noise in the industry that makes it almost impossible to actually get to the truth. If you want to hire an SEO consultant or contract out your SEO, I feel for you. We as a rule do not do that, so I really cannot make any good recommendations. We have hired for short periods of time some of the top names in the industry, but have in general, been disappointed.<

    Ok, first I’m thinking if you can’t make any good recommendations, how in the hell do you think this is a #1 tip to avoiding a fraudster???? 

    But beyond that, the whole 90% thing is not only pure unfounded conjecture I find it offensive and you could not be more wrong. You are referring to a lot of people that over the last 11 years I’ve had the pleasure and honor to work with, work for or partner with. I have not hired a lot of top names, I’ve worked with them, partied with them and consider them good friends and I guarantee you that you have it ass-backwards. 90% of people in the SEO industry are smart, experienced, honest and hard working. If you tell them what you want and they can deliver they will! If they can’t they will tell you that too and probably recommend someone that can and they are right and anyone would be wise to listen and take their advice.
     

    >2. It goes without saying that some of the most visible people in the SEO industry are not visible because they really understand SEO but because they are good at marketing themselves. Be wary of any information you read.<

    It goes without saying??? :0 Be wary of ANY information you read???

    c’mon, does this really sound like a tip to you? How would you feel if you asked me for help and my advice was to be wary of ANY information you read? My guess is you’d feel like I didn’t know what I was talking about.

    Again, the whole, “most people are visible because they are good at marketing themselves”, thing is unfounded, without any reference data whatsoever and simply wrong. Most people visible in the industry are visible EXACTLY because they know what they are doing, they are in the trenches everyday and the other people in the trenches recognize this fact. Besides, if you want something that goes without saying, how about anyone good at marketing themselves should be good at marketing someone else under similar circumstances?

     

    >3. There ARE real SEO experts out there. However, as a rule, they are not sharing their secrets because they are applying them to their own sites and making enormous amounts of money doing it.

    Again, how is this a tip for avoiding a fraudster? You do agree that there are expert SEO’s but you’re implying that they are so crooked that if you paid them to consult with you they would take your money and cheat you by not telling you the REAL scoop. This is not true. The vast majority of SEO’s I know will tell you EXACTLY what you ask them about and they will tell you the truth. The problem usually comes when they don’t tell you what you want to hear but that is not the same thing.

    As for not sharing, again that is wrong. I can easily name dozens of blogs and newsletters written by people who do know and share far more than they need to. The Guru is doing it right now and John Andrews immediately leaps to mind as another person who is telling you so many secrets even I am often surprised. But he is not telling you how to stuff meta tags, he is telling you the real stuff but you have to be willing to listen and see the value of the secrets he is revealing. That is the tricky part.

    Finally, the enormous amounts of money thing. #1, how much is enormous, #2 how do you know they make that much and #3 how is that a tip to help me avoid a fraudster? It sounds to me more like jealous bitching than a desire to steer your readers down the path to succesful online marketing.


    >4. An SEO expert in 2001 is not necessarily an expert in 2007. In the early years, there were very simple formulas that would practically guarantee top rankings. Many SEO “experts” came out of that era and have no clue how to generate rankings in today’s world. When interviewing SEO consultants, make sure and ask for their current success stories.<

    I was there in those early years and maybe it wasn’t as complex as it is now but it was still hard work and a LOT of people coming in fast all wanting your spots. There was never any guarantee of top rankings and you saying there was just indicates a possible reason you have been struggling as of late.  

    Again, the “many experts thing having no clue” is totally unsubstantiated and without merit, (not to mention more than a little offensive to all SEO’s). Logic would dictate that in any profession there are changes and if any professional does not stay abreast of those changes he will cease to be considered an expert. My contention is that if someone is still generating revenue either for themselves or for clients, he is still very capable of providing positive results through consulting or through providing services directly.

    I have no problem with asking for current success stories but I also feel this is a very poor excuse for a “tip”. I can show you a LOT of success but that does not mean you will be successful.
     

    >5. When you talk to an SEO consultant and he/she seems focused on specific little things on your site such as keyword density, meta tags, etc., move on. If he/she seems overly focused on inbound links, move on. If he/she is focused on implementing a strategy that makes people want to come to your site and stay there, you may have found one of the few SEO experts that know what they are talking about.<

    Ok, no slap du Guru for this one. This is one that I agree could be considered a tip.

    I think it lacks much real substance but I do think it is the closest thing so far to providing some value.


    >6. A good SEO strategy predicts where the search engines are going and moves a web site in that direction. It is obvious that search engines are getting smarter and will continue to do so. At some point, search results are going to be very relevant. That means that you need to make your site as relevant as possible if you want consistent rankings in the future.<

    This one has to call for a crazy-bitch slap. As I read this I thought to myself ---- WHAT ! ?!?!?

    This one is so wrong I don’t even know where to start. Is any client really willing to pay someone for what they THINK MIGHT happen in the future so I’m going to build your site for that possible event? Sounds a little crazy when I say it huh?

    Anyone who is responsible for promoting anything can only deal with results. Results today. Having an eye on possible future risks is prudent, but telling your readers to use this kind of yardstick to measure a good seo from a fraudster is beyond ridiculous.

    “You need to make your site as relevant as possible if you want ranking in the future” :0 Really, you should be ashamed of claiming this is a tip for avoiding fraud.  Tsk tsk tsk.
     

    >7. Gimmicks, shady manipulation, and tricks may work in the short term but are not a legitimate strategy for sites that you really care about. Also, be careful of over-optimization. Analyzing your top ranked competitors and trying to imitate their keyword density, weighting, etc. is a waste of time.<

    Again, while I feel you could have done a much better job of explaining what things like over-optimization and gimmicks are, you still get a get-out-of-a-bitchslap-free card for this one.

    I just wish you would have made it clear that finding someone who does understand the value of analyzing competitors for a lot of things other than what you mentioned is an indication of quality consultability.
     

    >8. SEO is going to continue to require more and more resources to do well. Small SEO budgets are just not going to cut it in competitive industries in the near future. In spite of that fact, for the present at least, SEO is still a far better investment than CPC for most industries.<

    You say, “in spite of the fact that SEO will be beyond the reach of small budgets”, , but the problem is that is NOT a fact. There are a LOT of ways for small budgets to use SEO and SEO consulting to improve their business and their online presence. I think you are doing a huge disservice to your readers and to the industry trying to convince small businesses to not spend their money on SEO when that may provide a greater value for small businesses than for most corporates. 

    I assure you I could give about 100 tips that would cost little more than some time that could improve traffic and/or conversions almost overnight. THAT is a fact!

    So, I’m not upset with you for casting negative perceptions over an industry that you clearly profit from. I’m not even that upset that you have offended my friends, colleagues and peers by calling 90% of them thieves and scam artists. I’m upset because you have the reach and power to advance the industry that you too are a part of instead of just making the problem worse. Yet you chose to write something that does damn little to actually provide any real value and insulting your own peers while doing it. It is hypocritical to the extreme and I, we all, expect more from you.

    Marketing Pilgrim could choose to be a part of the solution instead of just compounding the problem. I’m calling you out. I’m challenging you to do more to change the negative perceptions for the better.

    I care little what you may say of me, (I’m not expecting much of anything good after this), but I care a lot about what you do for the industry.  I think you are a smart company and it seems only smart that you would help to get people to realize that 90% of SEO's are NOT scammers and fraudsters. 90% are smart, hard working people who can be trusted if you are simply clear of what you really want.

    You can do a lot better and like all of us, if you can --- you should.

    Now, I’m not going to just leave it at this. I realize that all the Guru has done is complain and has not really done much to help the people who really do want to know how to locate the SEO’s that can actually help them solve problems.

    Tomorrow I leave for 3 days to finally fulfill a life-long dream of seeing the Taj Mahal. I can’t wait and even though I’m still very weak from being so sick for so long, I’m as excited as a kid on Chirstmas Eve.

    When I return before the end of this week, I am going to write The SEO Guru’s Tips for finding a good SEO and for those who need to find someone who can actually help them with search marketing and online promotion, this is the article you’ve been waiting for.  

     

    You kids better turn off that TV and get to bed before I get in there!

     

    PEACE

     

     

     

    Comments [12] | | # 
    Monday, September 24, 2007 8:31:48 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Thanks for the sharing your thoughts. Greg shared additional thoughts in a follow-up post here: http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/2007/08/more-on-seo.html

    As for "I’m challenging you to do more to change the negative perceptions for the better."

    Take some time to look around the 3,000+ posts on Marketing Pilgrim and you'll see we often rally in support of SEO.
    Monday, September 24, 2007 9:43:58 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Massa is a sack of shit that does NOTHING but tell lies.
    Guru my ass
    Monday, September 24, 2007 9:47:47 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Andy: thanks for your post. I can also understand you defend your colleague, and I'm sure there are plenty of posts on your website which show the right ammount of respect for the SEO industry, but Greg's post really isn't one of them. His follow-up had a nuanced tone, did clarify some things, but failed completely to address some of the grave insults of the previous posts. A weak apology I could find however: "I think that some of my points were misunderstood and I perhaps I could have worded them differently." I'd have to agree. But the entire "90% of all SEO's are crooked"-remark and the "There are good SEO's out there, but they won't tell you their secrets"-remark were such unfounded terrible insults that I expect more understanding in a follow-up post.
    Monday, September 24, 2007 10:43:26 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    I agree Andy. thanks for the comment by the way. I hope I did make it clear that I have a LOT of respect for you and for the the Pilgrim and that this article was out of character and I'm sure not meant in the tone it was presented.

    as to the
    >Massa is a sack of shit that does NOTHING but tell lies.
    Guru my ass (172.137.38.126 AC89267E.ipt.aol.com) <

    At least have the balls to leave your name if you are going to post something so childish.

    The SEO Guru (61.17.37.172 61.17.37-172-static.ahmedabad.vsnl.net.in)
    The SEO Guru
    Monday, September 24, 2007 12:57:54 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    I'm sure Greg's intentions were right, I think this particular post was just poor implementation.

    You'll love the Taj Mahal - it's amazing! You might be interested in checking out the Agra Fort as well.
    Monday, September 24, 2007 1:12:17 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Hi, I enjoyed reading your comments. Just one small thing. I said that I believed that 90% of SEOs are either crooked OR incompetent. I never said that 90% were crooked.

    By the way, this is my perception based on talking to hundreds of SEOs over the past several years. I would say the same thing about graphic designers, plumbers, and lawyers. Well, for lawyers, maybe it would be closer to 95%:)

    Oh, by the way, I agree that the title probably was not appropriate for the post. I should have just named it random thoughts about SEO or something rather than falling into the inane trap of trying to coming up with lists.


    Monday, September 24, 2007 2:42:31 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Hi there..... that was a hoot!! While I agree some of the Pilgrims points may have been taken out of context, yout retort was a fun read none-the-less. I thought 90% (ha ha ha) of all SEO writings on the web are TITLE grabbers, Top X# lists and re-hashing the basic grapola we all see day after day aren't they? I think I am getting numb to them and wouldn't ranted on that one myself.

    Yours was fun because I love to rant, just can't recall a rant about a rant before. Priceless!!

    I shall give U as well as Andy some link love for this one... In the end, trying to shed some light on the muddy world SEO providers is a valiant endeavor. There will be sub-par providers in every industry, now and forever. That fact we're stuck with.

    ... have a safe adventure.

    Dave
    Monday, September 24, 2007 4:20:40 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    in the same manner... 90% are not fraudsters...90% could not be smart and hard working etc... i would say 70%... there are people who do make a bad name for others... as in any field

    don't you think?
    Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:25:57 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Sometimes articles (and such headlines as this one) should hit the cutting room floor - is there such a thing for blog or must they publish every idea that comes up? It was good of you to call this out.
    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:44:45 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    But why call it out? So the title was a little misleading and the post could have been better thought out.. However, would it not have been a better use of your time to write something useful rather than pulling the guts out of another blogger?
    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:57:04 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    No matter what, I see both (Guru's and Andy's) blogs as an insight. Thanks to Guru for sharing the wisdom.

    FYI: Visiting Akshardham is an exhilarating experience. This fascinating place is located in New Delhi. Here are the contact details, just in case if you need it:

    Shri Swaminarayan Mandir (B.A.P.S.),
    'Swaminarayan Akshardham', N. H. 24,
    Near Noida Mor, New Delhi,
    INDIA - 110092
    Tel: (011) 2201 6688, 2202 6688
    Fax: (011) 2201 5757
    URL:http://www.akshardham.com/

    Once you see it, I am sure you will come with a post on your experience during the visit to Akshardham.
    Mehul
    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:28:41 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
    Thanks for pointing this blog.post out guru, its alittle stupidass hating like that on others in the game that give the whole seo game a bad name. Tell you what "Andy Beal" and "Greg Howlett" if "90% of SEOs are either crooked OR incompetent" then either of you point out even one of these people who you believe is either "crooked OR incompetent" from the list I will create of what I think is a list of the finest bunch of seo's on the planet. Ready......

    DaveN
    Oilman
    seo guru
    WebGuerrilla
    "Aaron Wall" A.K.A. seobook
    danny sullivan
    "Roger Montti" A.K.A. martinibuster
    "MICHAEL GRAY" A.K.A. Graywolf
    stuntdubl
    Sugarrae
    "Kristopher Jones" CEO of pepperjamsearch

    For my money those are some of the top seo's in the game and I personally have gotten some great tips from most of the people on that list so you guys "Andy Beal" and "Greg Howlett" if %90 of seo's are "crooked OR incompetent" then by all means point out any and all from "THAT LIST" that you think fit the bill of "crooked OR incompetent" Go ahead, we are all wait:).............


    P.S. "who am I you ask, I am a online business man that has made over 1 million dollors for myself and business partner over the last few years with NO client money to back us and very little PC skill's to start with (myself I am speaking about) so yea, lets see who you pick:).

    Barry Tubwell.
    COO, OM Solutions.
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